A conversation with Cuesta Benberry follows from an
onsite live taping by Barbara Wallace and filming by Grace Matthews on August 18, 2004 in St. Louis, Missouri. [The illustrated text and manuscript appear at www.anyonecanflyfoundation.org on the Anyone Can Fly Foundation, Inc. website in the section entitled, "Celebrated Artists and Distinguished Scholars Lifetime Achievement Awards."] 
FAITH: O.K. Very good. Question 1. Here we go. Unfolding the gloriously diverse
history of African-American quilt making has been your mission. You have made us know
that no one style of quilt making defines us all. Why has this mission been so important
to you?
CUESTA: I believe that African-American history in all forms should be as complete as
the history of the dominant or the mainstream population of the country. We should
recognize that African-American history in all forms should be investigated and given the
respect of the kind of intense investigation that is accorded to others. And so, when I
saw that African-American quilt history was becoming sort of the property of a group of
scholars that had a very limited outlook on what African-American quilters have done
over the years then I believed it was my task to try to give a more accurate and varied
picture of African-American quilt history.
http://www.oldstatehouse.com/collections/quilts.asp
http://www.oldstatehouse.com/piece-of-my-soul/
FAITH: How did you begin?
CUESTA: I began because I married into a Kentucky quilt making family. I had never
seen quilts like the ones that they made in this little small village in Western Kentucky
where they lived. These women were very proud of their quilts and I could see why.
Because I hadn't seen anything I thought that was so beautiful as their quilts. Their
quilts had names. Instead of saying, my blue quilt, they might say, my catch-as-catchpage
can, or my sugar bowl, and this was all very fascinating to me and these women had
access to many patterns and different designs. I didn't know that there were that many
designs of quilts. As I progressed on I learned that there was a history and so I began to
do research and used all the sources available to me here in St. Louis, such as the Public
Library, and when I started back in the late 50s, the Universities here didn't have the
problems of today. And so anyone was welcome to come and use their materials.
FAITH: They didn't have the security problems.
CUESTA: Right. And so, I used Washington University and it's a very old school and a
very good library. And St. Louis University, I had studied history at the graduate level at
St. Louis U. so I knew about their library. But then we had the private.... The first library
in St. Louis was the Mercantile and it was a pay library before the Public Library System
started. Anyway, I used all of those. Plus I interviewed quilters -- African-American
quilters, and others.
St. Louis was also a center for the manufacturing of stamped goods that were used for
the making of quilts. And so, I was able to get to the commercial side. I would go to
these factories down in Washington and make appointments with the owners. And they
were all really nice. And telling me of their business how they sent many things to
Britain... patterns... And they showed me their catalogues. And so, not only on the
personal level, but I was able at the same time to get some idea of the commercial side
of quilt making. And I'm always open to different perspectives and not limit myself.
Some people might dismiss the commercial side. But that's a part of it. So I want to
know about that.
And I want to know about the individual, the creative quilter. And I want to know about
the history. So it's been an ever expanding field over the years since I started.
top
FAITH: Looking back, when did you begin to get received so that people were listening
to your ideas? When were you able to get published?
CUESTA: Well, in the early 70s I began to write for a little quilt magazine out of Sapulpa,
Oklahoma and it was called Nimble Needle Treasures and I was able to write articles. It
was not just a pattern book which many of those early publications were. The owner
and publisher became ill and stopped publishing about 1975.
Then I started writing for Quilter's Newsletter Magazine.
http://www.quiltersnewslettermagazine.com/ The editor, Bonnie Lehman, had
approached me before that when I was doing the articles for Nimble Needle Treasures,
http://www.nimbleneedletreasures.com/, a quarterly, and Quilter's Newsletter was a
monthly. I was still working at the time. My son was young and in school and I had a
family to take care of. I couldn't write a monthly column. But after folded then the
editor of Quilters Newsletter did not ask me again to write a monthly column, but she
would ask me to write specific articles and essays on various topics. So that was about
the time I think when ...because Quilters Newsletter was the only quilt magazine for a
good while, and then others began to be published, like "Ladies Circle Patchwork Quilts,"
but Quilters Newsletter kind of established itself as the premiere quilt publication. So it
was from there that people began to notice my writings.
And not long after that I had started an intense project of researching African-American
quilts and that came about at the time of the Bicentennial.
FAITH: That's 1976.
CUESTA: Right. Because there was a great deal of emphasis then on learning about
ones ethnic heritage. And I believed... I more than believed--I knew that black people
had made quilts. My grandma made them, although she treated them like blankets, and
then all of my in-laws... I knew. But as one searched the literature of that time, the
quilt literature, there was scarcely a mention of black quilters.
FAITH: And you knew for sure because you had researched it.
CUESTA: Right. Then I began to go on the lecture circuit because people were really
interested.
FAITH: This was 1970s?
CUESTA: Well, a little later. It was about 1980.
FAITH: So 1980 was really a pivotal time, wasn't it?
CUESTA: Right.
FAITH: That's when I made my first quilt. 1980.
Figure 1:
Faith Ringgold
Echoes of Harlem, 1980
Acrylic on canvas, dyed, painted and pieced fabric
96 x 84 inches
Collection of Philip Morris Companies, Inc.
http://www.faithringgold.com/ringgold/d33.htm
© Faith Ringgold
CUESTA: Yeah. Right. I remember because I got that. The Artist and the Quilt.
[Editor's note: The Artist & the Quilt, 1983. edited by Charlotte Robinson. New York:
Alfred A. Knopf]
FAITH: That's right. The Artist and the Quilt.
CUESTA: But you were famous before that.
FAITH: Well the point is that quilts really did it for me because it was a way that I could
continue to paint without having these big, huge, heavy, massive pictures to carry
around. I mean it would have slowed me down a lot if I had not discovered that I could
paint on these quilts. It was perfect. But I had no idea that it was going to be important
to anybody but me, nor that I was operating in an important time, like the 1980s. So
you were really in a serious... ‘Cause the 60s had passed and the quilters had gone
unnoticed.
CUESTA: Yes.
FAITH: By both the African-American art scholars and the white ones, too. So there you
were. Into the 1980s and still sitting by the door waiting to find out what's going to
happen.
CUESTA: Right. Right. But then I was still working in 1980 but I would schedule maybe
weekends or summer trips. It was surprising how people were so interested in African-
American quilts. It was not... Most of the calls and invitations I received were from
white quilt dealers and from white institutions and museums and places like that. They
were very, very interested.
About this same time Maude Wahlman's quilt, a little bit before that she had been a
student at Yale and she was one of the few students in the Black Studies Program. I
learned about her work through a Yale alumni magazine and then followed it up with
some people that I knew and I got information.
In the late 70s they had a big African-American crafts program in Memphis. She was
there. So was Gladys-Marie Frye. That was when I learned that most of the research on
African-American quilts was coming from the academic community. None of the people
that I knew, who were basically quilt people, had any program about, or research effort
about African-American quilts. But then I met Roland Freeman , Gladys-Marie Frye,
John Michael Blatch, and Maude. And they were the ones who were doing research on
African-American quilts.
FAITH: How were they being received?
CUESTA: Fine. Because New York is the media capital of the world. And because of
their credentials and who they were. Then her first show was 10 Afro-American Quilters
http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~wahlman/quilters.html and they were from Mississippi. The
quilts were. But I followed right along there and then at some later time other more
quilt-oriented people, but not black, who weren't scholars, like Maude and John Michael
Blatch who teaches at George Washington University... They were all scholars. But then,
more quilt-oriented people like Roberta Harten who was a teacher and Eli Leon who was
a dealer, and others began. And so then that whole area of African-American quilts
became a hot topic.
FAITH: And what year was this?
CUESTA: Well it was about ‘82/'83.
FAITH: The ‘80s is just it.
CUESTA: Yeah. Right. That was when it was. Pam McMorris who did one of the first
broadcasts on television, a quilt series came to St. Louis to interview me. She was from
Bowling Green U in Ohio. She didn't know Maude because she came from the quilt side.
But I told her about Maude and I told her about Gladys-Marie and so she did go and
interview them. It has just grown. The interest in African-American quilts and quilt
history has expanded beyond belief.
FAITH: So you're pleased?
CUESTA: Yeah. I really am. What is so exciting now is young African-Americans, like
Kyra Hicks and Carolyn Mazloomi. They add substance to the research. And they are so
thorough. And they know all the modern techniques. All the new technology. Kyra was
the marketing person at Hallmark. When she moved to Washington, DC she worked for
the Washington Post in that Department, the Internet, or whatever. I was born too
soon. And then 9/11 came and they cut back at the Washington Post. Kyra was one of
the last ones hired and so she lost that. But she's a marketing person. She graduated
from the London School of Economics. She knows it. She is now working in the
marketing department of the Marriott Hotel. A job's not hard for her to find in her field. But I'm just so happy that these younger people and the older ones have to...
top
FAITH: This is just such a powerful field it's got to attract powerful people.
Figure 2:
Peggie L. Hartwell
Ode to Harriet Powers, 1995
Hand-appliquéd and machine-quilted cotton
Collection of Carolyn Mazloomi
http://www.antiquesandthearts.com
© Peggie L. Hartwell
CUESTA: Wonderful. And I'm just happy about that. And they are so smart, they really
are.
FAITH: What can you say about the various quilting medium? Needlework, patchwork,
appliqué, painted cloth, etc. and this burr technique, etc.? What can you say about
these things to explain why and how African-American quilters have used these materials
in the making of their quilts?
CUESTA: I think what really needs to be established is that they did. That they did use
all of these various techniques that you just mentioned. All of these kinds of needlework that are not usually assigned to them.
FAITH: I had heard that African-American quilt makers make large stitches.
Figure 3:
Hattie Williams Jones and Mary Allen Smith William
Grandmother's Flower Garden Quilt, 1930-1970
Polyester, knit, cotton, pieced
93 x 72 1/4 inches
Collection of the Old State House Museum
Purchase
http://www.oldstatehouse.com
CUESTA: Yeah. Well. Sometimes they do. I think that that should be noted. The only
thing is when they transfer that and say that all African-American quilters make large
stitches. But then, you can understand why they would make large stitches. Because
the purpose for which those quilts were made. Those quilts were not made to be
beautiful wall hangings. They were utilitarian and they needed to be made in a hurry.
I interviewed a woman right here in St. Louis, she's since passed, and she made the
Grandmother's flower garden quilt. And that's that hexagon. And she's from Mississippi,
but her hexagons were big. And most times when you see those quilts Grandmother's
flower gardens are small hexagons. And I asked her, Malverna Richardson, used to live
right out here in Beverly Hills and I used to love to go to her house and interview her.
(This is an aside, because she made the best cobbler.) She was such a wonderful
woman. I loved to go to her house and see her quilts and talk to her. And I asked her
about those hexagons because her hexagons were that big, and most of them are small.
She said, "I ain't no fool. I used to make those little bitty hexagons. But now I make
them big so I can get through and that's the way it is."
And she was a quilt maker. Oh she made some lovely quilts. I used to love to go to her
house.
FAITH: So you've established that African-American quilt makers made quilts in all the
different techniques.
CUESTA: Yes, yes.
FAITH: Some showed technical proficiency better than others, but they embraced
everything that they came about.
Figure 4:
Authorine Wilson Anderson
Butterfly Quilt, ca. 1930
Cotton, appliquéd
Collection of Old State House Museum [96.01.7.]
http://www.oldstatehouse.com
CUESTA: I think so.
FAITH: And for another reason, that's also true is because they worked during slavery.
If they were going to make quilts they were going to have to please the quilt master's
household--whatever they wanted. Now for their own quilts, they could make those the
way they wanted to. But they had to know these other ways. And I think maybe you
could tell us about this. What were the dominant styles during slavery that they used to
make quilts for the master's house?
CUESTA: Well, that too is a problematic subject. About the master. Because in many
instances it was not the master's choice, or the mistress' choice. These black quilters,
in many instances, are needle workers. You can find those bills, advertising bills, and it
might say, offer a slave for sale and mention the fact that she was an excellent needle
worker.
Figure 5:
Elizabeth Hobbs Keckley, former slave
The Liberty Quilt, ca. 1870
Silk, pieced, appliquéd, embroidered
85 1/2 x 85 1/2 inches
Collection of the Kent State University Museum
http://www.centerforthequilt.org
http://www.quiltindex.org...
Elizabeth Keckley, who eventually came right here to St. Louis, came from out East, I
think Virginia, made her whole family -- made their living (because they fell on hard
times) with sewing. She came right here to St. Louis and built up a clientele and she
kept 17 people in food. Her slave owners and their family and the other slaves attached
to this house. And she learned to sew from her mother. Her mother was a seamstress.
She wasn't governed by her master, or her mistress, because she says that her mistress
couldn't sew. And so the idea that they kind of gave guidance to the slave, that's true
in some instances and in others it's not. And it deals with the particular family. Later on
she got her freedom and went to Washington, DC where she became the leading
dressmaker in the city. And when the Lincoln's came to Washington, DC she became
Mary Todd Lincoln's dressmaker. And more than that, her confidante and friend. But
she wrote in her book, she never saw Mrs. Lincoln with a needle in her hand. [Editor's
Note: cf. Keckley, Elizabeth. Behind the Scenes, Formerly a Slave, but more Recently
Modiste, and a Friend to Mrs. Lincoln, or, Thirty Years a Slave, and Four Years in the
White House. Urbana: University of Illinois Press. 2001. (Originally published: New York :G.W. Carleton, 1868. This edition originally published: Chicago : R.R. Donnelly, 1998.)]
http://www.lkwdpl.org/wihohio/keck-eli.htm
So even before and after slavery, it was dependent on her. And you can find many
others who were brought into these households. I went to the Valentine Museum there
in Richmond, Virginia and it was just unbelievable. They pulled out, they have the quilts
in the drawers lying flat. They pulled them out. And many of them were slave made.
And also, they have slave garments, slave made garments, the most exquisite lace... Now
in some instances, did the white mistress... ?
We all go over the same items because the history is there so later on ...read in her
book on slave quilts. But this woman was brought from the Caribbean area as a slave.
They even mentioned in the history how she was treated differently. She had her own
cabin. And she did all this exquisite needlework. But she came with that knowledge.
And I guess her mistress...
FAITH: She was given the time to do this elaborate needlework.
top
CUESTA: Right. Right. Because that was a feather in their cap. Those pieces are just
wonderful. So I'm not saying that in some instances the mistress may have taught the
slave needle worker how to make various quilts, but in other instances not.
You know, another thing I found when I went to Baltimore I found that in the census...
this is during slavery time, that in the Baltimore census, as they listed the residents in
the back of the census they listed the free blacks in Baltimore. And so that was really a
great information, because those free blacks... There were schools that they attended.
You had to pay. So that meant that those free blacks who sent their children to these
schools, and they were not public schools, they were private schools, but they were
there. And one of the things they taught, ...and the Headmaster was usually a man ...
and all of this can be documented and confirmed, because the records are not only there
in Baltimore they're in the Smithsonian, and I was just so elated when I found this out.
Quilt making. Quilt making was a part of the curriculum.
So those girls, and they came from all over. They didn't just come from Baltimore to go
to those... They called them Academies, Some from even here. Free Blacks. I got the
list of student for a year and it told where they lived originally and they'd been sent to
live. And they had more than one. It just grows. There's so much to this. In Baltimore,
there was a nunnery of black nuns. I met one of the nuns here in St. Louis and had a
small display of quilts and she was telling me about in 1820 in Baltimore they made
quilts. In almost all nunneries they'd teach fine needlework, at least they did back then.
Here's another young woman. Up in New York. She just got her Doctorate. Myra Brown
Green. She was so fascinated with that when I told her. She's following it up. And she's
already made visits to the mother house there in Baltimore. It's much reduced, but it's
still in existence. And they have the records. All of these venues where African-
Americans, even as far back as slavery, had access, in various ways to learn to make
quilts. It's so marvelous. I'm so happy that these younger people. Younger scholars are
taking it and go. It's wonderful.
FAITH: Can we determine by focusing on the many quilting techniques, traditional, crazy
quilt...
CUESTA: I think the contribution has been so varied because, like you brought this
today, this is something. And this can be developed.
FAITH: That's why it was important that you opened the door for this history. Because
you can't know until you get the history.
CUESTA: Right. Right. And until you can realize the scope of the history. And how
many areas are affected. I think that those improvisational, utilitarian quilts...
FAITH: Is that the same thing? Improvisational and Utilitarian?
CUESTA: Utilitarian is made for the bed. They weren't trying to do fancy work.
Improvisational, they put the pieces where they fit. If it didn't fit, they'd make it fit.
They were made in a very casual way, but the image that resulted was very striking.
Figure 6:
Hattie Collins, former slave
Log Cabin Quilt, ca. 1890
Cotton, pieced
74 x 63 1/2 inches
Collection of Old StateHouse Museum
Purchase [88.17.3.]
http://www.oldstatehouse.com...
FAITH: But they weren't trying to be striking.
top
CUESTA: No they weren't trying to.
FAITH: Actually, were they trying to be plain?
CUESTA: I don't know. I talked to ____ and she made britches quilts in an
improvisational way. She cut up jeans, she cut up pants. All they were trying to do was
to make this thing that was useful but somehow the results were so striking. So
wonderful. And I think that is what has captured people's attention.
Other quilts that African-Americans make are no different from mainstream quilts. They
have that look. I think it's important that you recognize all of them. For instance, the
younger people of today when utilitarian quilts are really not needed in their particular
households, are making quilts that are artistic expressions of themselves. It's different.
All of these various kinds of quilts I think should receive recognition as African-American
quilt works because if you don't then you really aren't telling the truth.
FAITH: You're losing a lot. You're judging. And by so doing that you're losing.
CUESTA: You're putting your own definition on what is a people's work when that isn't
really so.
FAITH: Well, you know, that's good. I like hearing that because that is a problem in the
art world. That other people want to decide who and what is going on. When in reality
it is the artist who has to make the decision. Because without them making the decision
there is no work. So the work has to first be produced. And then after it's produced,
then these other people can come along and say, this, this, this, and that. But the first
decision is that the artist makes the work. And in order for them to make the work,
they have to decide what that work is going to look like. So they're in the power seat all
the way. And if they never decide. Then there's no work, then there's nothing for these
other people to come along and talk about.
CUESTA: That's true. That's why I think that it's really important, not just for African-
Americans, but for quilters in general, to keep making quilts. Because, like you say, if
they stop making them then what have you got to write about? Nothing.
Figure 7:
Mary Allen Smith Williams
Log Cabin Quilt, Medallion Variation (also called Pig Pen), ca.1955
Wool flannel, cotton, pieced
82 x 73 inches
Collection of Old State House Museum
Purchase. [95.01.7.]
http://www.oldstatehouse.com...
FAITH: And make them in the freest possible way. Do it their way. Because without
that there's nothing to qualify which way is the best way. If they haven't actually done
it.
Now, can we define, how and when African-American quilters have inspired the modern
art movement in America? There's that question. It's a hot ticket. Because, I don't
think it's ever been discussed. It hasn't been discussed because history is powerful.
And as we found out in the 60s, to keep a person's history covered is to cover up their
dream. And this is America where we value freedom. And we're constantly struggling
to make sure that we have it.
And here we find that here we have generations of women, it's mostly women, who have
created a two-dimensional art history that I thought we didn't have. I would have said,
when I was a college student, I want to be a painter. I went to college to be a painter.
But I had no history as a painter. If I had wanted to be a sculptor, no problem. Everyone
knows that African sculpture unfolded the Modern Art Movement. In the work of
Picasso, they created cubism by looking at these curious sculptures, African sculpture.
So, everywhere in the world people know about African sculpture. It is widely collected
and acclaimed as a beacon of light in the history of sculpture of the world. O.K.? It
takes its place.
But I would have said, as far as easel painting is concerned, which is what I want to do,
we have no tradition in that. I would have said that. And I'm sure that most painting
students today would say it, too. The easel painting that we use as a classic form is
European derived, invented by Europeans. We are coming into that now. We do not
have typically a two-dimensional free form of painting as our history. I knew about
quilts. Yes. But I didn't think of them in the way that I'm thinking of them now.
Because now I would say, quilt making is our two-dimensional form. It's two-dimensional
and it's also three-dimensional. But it's basically two-dimensional. But it is. It is the
classic form of African-American two-dimensional art and it was begun by women.
Figure 8:
Michael A. Cumming
Jesus Bearing the Cross, 2003
84 x 84 inches
Collection of the Artist
http://www.michaelcummings.com/other.html
© Michael A. Cumming
CUESTA: Right. Right.
FAITH: And I'm sure a whole lot of people still don't know this. And maybe a whole lot
of people might argue about this. What do you think about that?
CUESTA: It's an eye-opener to me. It just brings another dimension to the overall topic.
I personally had never...
FAITH: But Cuesta, can't you imagine? Quilts are made by women all over the world.
What makes them all want to do this? It's got to be something extremely powerful. It
satisfies. It really satisfies.
CUESTA: They can trace quilting back, in Italy, and Sicily to 8th or 9th Century. And they
have found remnants in the Far East, like in China, that even go back farther. In Africa
quilting was mainly used as armor.
FAITH: Egypt has a very ancient quilting tradition. They call it applique. They used it to
decorate coverings for the camels and things like that.
If one were to define the compositional criteria of the Minimalist Movement in American
art from 1959 to the late 1960s one could use the same 7 traits that were used by
present-day quilt scholars to define quilts of so-called authentic African-American origin.
In their "innocent arrogance" (your words), these scholars used these 7 traits to define
a group of improvisational African-American quilters whose work was, in fact, inspired by
the slave quilts of over 200 years ago. And I set it in 200 years because that's a pretty
liberal kind of year to pick, 200.
Those 7 traits are: (1) emphasis on vertical strips, (2) bright colors, (3) large designs,
(4) asymmetry, (5) improvisation, (6) multiple patterning, (7) symbolic forms. Did the
improvisational quilt makers, whose traits of quilt design date back to over 200 years
ago see the Minimalist Art of the 1960s, or was it the other way around? Why have art
historians and scholars not talked about this, especially since a show of these very
quilts, Gee's Bend, is traveling the country's major museums as we speak? Doesn't it
seem interesting?
http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/m/minimalism.html ;
http://www.high.org/experience/exhibitions/exhibitions.aspx?id1=186
CUESTA: Right. So many of those characteristics are quite evident. We talked about
what large pieces and the quilter's reason for doing it and using it. So it might not
coincide with what the artist thinks of it. It gives the same effect when it's done. As I
look at these pictures that you brought. It's just so apparent.
FAITH: It's dynamic. It's just absolutely dynamic. You see, during that time, in the
1960s there was this thing. We had done all the fancy work. All of these different
techniques had been used in art that were very busy, very exciting, very decorative, all
of that. Now we want to get rid of all of that. And it was said, Less is more. No
political art. No art with messages. No art with designs. No art with decorations. No
art with people. No people. Get away from the people. Non-objective art about
nothing. Just nothing at all. Not even the paint. No textural effects. Now the Gee's
Bend, just to use them as an example, they were saying the same thing but because
they couldn't afford anything else. So, one group is saying we have all of these things
but we don't want to use them any more because now we're just deciding that less is
more and what you see is what you see and nothing more. So it's the same thing but
for different reasons.
top
CUESTA: But then, the images that result are so similar. It's just fascinating to me. It's
really wonderful. http://planetpatchwork.com/Gees%20Bend%202/
FAITH: What do you have in mind for the future history of quilt makers and quilt making
in America? What is left to be done? What is most urgent for our plans for the future?
CUESTA: I believe that a more extensive investigation of African-American quilt history
will be conducted. These younger people are going to go into areas that never occurred.
It's going to expand. Keep growing and what will result will be, maybe for the first time,
especially as quilts concern women, a very well developed history of African-American
quilts. It's coming. And these young people are going to do it.
FAITH: That's my next question. What do you imagine will be our leadership in the quilt
world of the future? Do you have a message for them?
CUESTA: Well. I have a message that I admire what they're doing. How far I know
they're going to take this. And the seriousness with which they approach this subject.
They're not playing. They are very serious about their investigations and it's going to
bring respect and recognition to the topic. The scholars themselves will reap some of
the benefits. But the subject itself, I can just see it expanding and - Because these
young people are not only very competent in the new technologies, they have
imaginations.
FAITH: Can you name us some names?
Figure 9:
Carolyn Mazloomi
The Family Quilt from Solid as a Rock Series. 1989
Cotton, fabric paint, pieced
49 x 39 inches
Collection of the Museum of Arts and Design, New York City
http://www.centerforthequilt.org...
CUESTA: I've mentioned Kyra Hicks, Dr. Carolyn Mazloomi, Dr. Myrah Brown Green.
Gwendolyn McGee in Jackson, Mississippi. Dr. Marlene Seabrook in Charleston, South
Carolina. These are serious scholars. They don't see any barriers to their investigations.
They don't recognize it. Whatever it takes, they'll do. They're wonderful. And some of
the older ones, the predecessors of these younger people, have made contributions that
deserve some recognition that I don't think they always have received. For instance,
Roland Freeman collected those quilts from Mississippi.
FAITH: Were they slave quilts?
CUESTA: No. They were pretty old. Most of those quilts served as objects for that first
group of scholars. They used Roland's quilt collection. Now Roland himself is, I think,
he's a photojournalist. That's his work. And he collected these quilts just because he
liked them. I think he was on a folk writing assignment for the Smithsonian. And the
folklorist was Worth Long, they went together. He collected those quilts when it wasn't
being done. So therefore I think that, although he does not enter the scholarly debate
about quilts. I think that he had that idea to collect these quilts just because of their
appeal to him. That earns him a place.
GRACE: How can we see those quilts? How can we see his collection?
Figure 10:
Gwendolyn Magee
Jewel Fire, 1996
108 1/2 x 88 inches
Collection of the artist
Photo by Roland Freeman
http://www.quiltethnic.com/mission.html
© Gwendolyn Magee
CUESTA: It's still privately held. But he usually has part of it traveling around in various
exhibitions. I notice some of his quilts that he got in Mississippi, very close copies, and
these are individual quilts, so if anybody copies it, it's obviously a copy because the
quilts are so unique that almost nobody else would have that same idea.
http://www.tgcd.org/tgcd.cfm?a=ex cf: Something to Keep You Warm: The Roland
Freeman Collection of Black American Quilts from the Mississippi Heartland. Mississippi
Dept. of Archives & History, 1979; and More Than Just Something To Keep You Warm:
Tradition and Change in African-American Quilting. A Quincentenary Tour. Philadelphia:
Springside School, January 24-March 13, 1992.
FAITH: Do you find that happening a lot?
CUESTA: Not a lot. But it happens.
FAITH: People copying quilts.
CUESTA: Out of Freeman's collection. And this man in California who was shown this
picture and asked to make a quilt. And, of course, he was black, and therefore that
made it legitimate. But it was an obvious copy of Roland Freeman. So Roland Freeman's
early collection of African-American quilts, mostly from Mississippi should be cited as an
important source of efforts of African-American quilters because he got them early on
before there had been any outside influence.
FAITH: Cuesta, is there anything else I should have asked you or any other statement
that you would like to make?
BARBARA: I'm curious as to the quilts... You say you married and your husband's family
was in Kentucky. I'm curious about the names of the quilts.
CUESTA: My mother-in-law... That shoe quilt on the front of the book is from my
husband's family. A lot of people call that the boot quilt but the family always called it
the shoe quilt. I think it had to do... because it was the late 1890's or something like
that, and the women wore high top shoes. Now what's so unusual about that is, you
look at that and you think that's an appliqué but it's not. They pieced that. And people,
and they cut that by eye. Because all of those shoes are not the same size. And the
details are not the same. So that was one of my husband's...
FAITH: May I give you this book? Give me that one so that you can make reference to,
...because you've got a whole article in here.
CUESTA: Well, yes. Most of these were quilts that were in the exhibition when we had
the show. But this is my husband's family.
BARBARA: So it's like a collage, is that right?
FAITH: It's not.
CUESTA: It's pieced. It's just pieced in there. You'd be surprised.
FAITH: It's amazing.
CUESTA: It is! Because it looks like it's appliqué. They cut pieces to fit... What they
did was cut out the shoe. That's was Fannie, her name was Fannie Cork, and she cut
that shoe and then... And part of it is pieced, too. Then she pieced the background.
So...
FAITH: Hold it up so we can get a picture of it.
Figure 11:
Fanny Cork
Lady's Shoe Quilt, ca. 1890
Cotton, pieced, (thirty blocks)
67 x 93 inches
Collection of Cuesta Benberry
http://www.centerforthequilt.org...
GRACE: And they made each square separately without a template.
CUESTA: Evidently without a template. She must have done it by eye. Just by eye.
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BARBARA: I wanted to say also that when you were speaking about the quilt masters
requests in terms of what quilts were made and how they looked, I immediately thought
of the blacksmith, or any craftsman or artisan of the time doing their craft. The quilt
makers appear to have that same artisanship, talent, craft, lore where the quilt maker or
the master needle worker was creating art. Then the household would use it.
FAITH: The only difference is, we're talking about women. That's the only difference.
The men had status. They made those railings, those iron railings in Louisiana.
CUESTA: I heard Phillip Simmons, that very famous iron worker in Charleston. He had
pictures of... I don't know if he's passed since then or not. He was pretty elderly then.
All of his work all around Charleston, gates, and everything.
BARBARA: Very fine craft.
CUESTA: Yes!
BARBARA: Well that's what this made me think of as you were telling Faith about it.
FAITH: And you know when you go to West Africa, they have a whole tradition of
wrought ironwork. They brought that when they came.
BARBARA: Of course we know we brought this when we came.
FAITH: But the women, that's the issue. Women are not known for creating art that is
innovative and universal. Here we see that it is. And also it's not from the European
tradition of painting in the way that we can say that it is mainstream. It was definitely
used. And art's not supposed to be used. It's supposed to be looked at.
Figure 12:
Dindga McCannon
Mask #45, 1994
Leather, mud cloth, shells, snakeskin, cotton, found objects, lace
50 x 25 inches
Collection of the Artist
http://www.art-alive.com/dindga/index.htm
© Dindga McCannon
BARBARA: It was made to be used.
FAITH: It's coming out of a humble tradition of utilitarianism. Yet it approaches the fine
arts. It is a fine art.
BARBARA: I think beyond utilitarian. It was made to be used and it used scraps. It used
things that were extra, and that were readily available to create beauty. And
utilitarianism. It used what was not usable to create something that was absolutely
necessary to survive, a warm, attractive bedcover.
Figure 13:
Lucy Mingo, Gee's Bend
Pine Cone Quilt, 1995
Cottons, pieced
90 x 90 inches
Collection of Cuesta Benberry
Photograph courtesy of Saint Louis Art Museum
FAITH: But we also notice in the early tools, working tools, they first come off very
crude. And then later on they begin to decorate it, design it. So this happens in every
form. But the big difference is, these are women. And those guys who were doing all
that hammering and stuff, those were men.
Cuesta: ...the family that was...
Faith: See all that embroidery work in there? Hold that up. Barbara was trying to get
an image of the embroidery.
Cuesta: Yes. These are slave made quilts. This Broderie Perse, the cut-out chintz.
http://www.quiltindex.org/fulldisplay.php?pbd=kentuckytest-a0a2q1-a This is the
Liberian. The American Colonization Society had an effort during slavery time to pay the
slave owners for their slaves and then they repatriate them to Liberia and Sierra Leone.
But in later years, the churches, especially the Baptist Church, sent missionaries,
American missionaries, to Liberia.
Faith: Abyssinian Baptist Church did that.
Cuesta: Did they? And this is one. The Liberians made this quilt for this missionary
family. Some of these children were even born in Africa because they stayed there so
long and this was the most wonderful. And about 1922 when he was getting ready to
come back to the States and bring his family, the Liberian community...
Faith: Could you talk a little briefly about those embroidery quilts?
Cuesta: Both of these quilts were slave made quilts. I think this one is from Missouri.
The slaves made two of these. Twin. After Emancipation then this was handed down in
the slave owner's family. I found a number of them like that. When the slaves left those
plantations, they didn't take the quilts with them, they were considered the property of
the slave-owners. And so they were handed down. And strange as it may seem, and
problematic as it may sound, it may be the cause that they were preserved. Because
when the slaves left with nothing almost. If they had had any quilts they would have
used them. But by them staying in the slave owner's home they were preserved.
Faith: They would have used them. We used ours. We would get a trunk from the
South. When my Great-Great Grandmother died. We used everything that came in that
trunk. And consequently we don't have it anymore.
Barbara: May I ask about the term twin?
Cuesta: Twin. There were two quilts just alike. So there were two of these. One was
preserved by this lady in Arrow Rock, Missouri. Mrs. Miller. She's since passed. Faith,
did you ever hear about 1970, Hallmark and Woman's Day had a nationwide traveling
exhibition of needlework, some of it was to the Queen, a big rug, Andy Warhol had a
piece in it. It was called "Stitched in Time?" This quilt was in it. It traveled from one
end of the country to the other. It came to St. Louis. It had some quilts, I think, from
the show.
Barbara: So the pattern is embroidered onto it?
Cuesta: This one, this is pieced. This is appliqué. This part here is pieced together then
it's sewn down on top of that. Now this one has appliqué and embroidery. See the
embroidery there? This one is a wig rose?
Barbara: Turn that around. Which, the green?
Cuesta: The buds have embroidery.
Barbara: And the green?
Cuesta: This? Brocade. Those are pieced then appliquéd onto there. This was a Sue
Ellen Meyer, they live right here in St. Louis. She was going to try to come today.
Here's another one. This is in the Smithsonian. This was made by a 16-year-old slave.
And they got documentation on this. So, a lot of times, that's a problem. They have to
go by word of mouth. And they don't have any written documentation. So it's called
into question.
Barbara: And the name of this one is the Tulip Quilt?
Figure 14:
Ann Cotton
The Tulip Quilt, ca. 1840
Appliquéd, pieced
100 x 85 inches
Photo Courtesy of the Smithsonian Institution,
American Museum of Art History
[Negative #76-13388]
http://www.quiltindex.org...
Cuesta: Yes, right. That's The Tulip Quilt. And that is in the Smithsonian collection. I
think it came from Virginia. Pittsylvania County, Virginia. And they're preserved.
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Barbara: Why are all the squares exactly the same?
Cuesta: That was the style.
Barbara: It's like a stamp. Mechanical almost.
Cuesta: And that is typical of the European style that they repeated. And they make
those blocks separately. They make up a pile of these blocks. Then this stripping is
called sashing. Then they line them up. They may do it across this way or they may do
it vertically, line them up and attach the sashing.
Faith: appliqué on top? How do they attach the sashing? Oh I see.
Cuesta: Right there. Yes, that's sashing.
Barbara: Would you call that piecing?
Cuesta: Yes, in a way. They're piecing the sash. That is sewn. That is a typical style
that they repeat the blocks. You can just sit up and make a whole bunch of blocks.
Faith: The first quilt I made was like that. My mother, The Artist and the Quilt show? I
painted the squares and my mother created the sashing by sewing together triangles
which she originally wanted to just free cut.
Cuesta: By eye.
Faith: And I said, oh my what is she going to do? I didn't understand that free cutting.
So she said, Ms. Ringgold you make it. You do what you want to do and when you get
ready I'll sew it together for you. And so I got a template of this triangle and I cut it and
she sewed them together and created the sashes in between the paintings, the portraits
that I did. But I always say that I wish I had kept my mouth shut and just let her do it. It
would have been wonderful.
Cuesta: Your mother was a designer anyway.
Faith: Yes. But my mother had been taught quilt making from her grandmother whose
mother had been a quilt maker during slavery. So she was the family quilt maker and she
had taught her daughter. Her daughter taught her daughter. And her daughter taught
my mother. So there's all this history. And so when I said, I intimated that she didn't
really know what she was talking about, she just said, look, you do it your way. And I
guess she didn't want to try to explain it to me.
Cuesta: You know I first read about you in connection with quilts in Patricia Manardi's, I
think it was called, FEMINIST JOURNAL ARTICLE. She tore Jonathan Holstein's theories
up! He was saying that women really didn't make art. She mentioned you in that article.
[Editor's Note, cf. Patricia Mainardi, "Quilts: The Great American Art," Feminist Art
History: Questioning the Litany, edited by Norma Broude and Mary D. Garrard (N.Y.:
Harper and Row, 1982)]
Now here's another one. This is a Broderie Perse where they take a piece of chintz and
cut it out very intricately and then appliqué it onto there. That's an early style. That is
late 18th century early 19th century technique. Nowadays they're doing what you call
retro-work and so they're kind of going back to some of those. But...
And here's that wonderful Elizabeth Keckley, the one I said was here in St. Louis and
took care of 17 people. And was Mary Todd Lincoln's dressmaker. And these pieces
were supposed to have been from scraps left over from Mary Todd Lincoln's
dressmaking. Elizabeth Keckley was a leader in... When she was living in Washington,
D.C. they had an organization that would bring the slaves in and care for them. She was
a part of that. And also it was the idea of really -- of helping the slaves to gain their
liberty. And so right in the center of this block she had written in embroidery the word
‘liberty.' And this is silk. And you know silk shreds over time, because as it dries out it
shreds. So this quilt is very fragile.
But I knew the man who at that time owned it. He was a dealer in Ohio. Ross Trump. He
said that he was not going to let it go out anymore because it's too fragile. But he was
very nice and he said yes it could be in my show if they would not hang it. Just lay it
flat, under glass, so nobody could touch it. But it couldn't travel, because this show did
travel. So when he got it back he gave it to the University Ohio, at Akron, I think, in
honor of his mother. I don't know whether she went to school there or not. And so he
knew that they would preserve it and take care of it in their Textiles Department.
http://dept.kent.edu/museum/collection/keckley.htm
This is a wonderful quilt.
BARBARA: That looks like a story quilt.
CUESTA: It is. The crucifixion and the Garden of Eden. Now this came from Georgia.
The quilt, at that time belonged to Shelley Zegert, but it's now at the High Museum. I
think they bought it because it is a Georgia quilt.
FAITH: We didn't see any quilts when we were there. Did we?
BARBARA: No, we saw Kente cloth and Ghanaian gold.
CUESTA: At the High? Now here's Georgia's famous Lady's Shoe Quilt.
http://www.quiltindex.org/fulldisplay.php?pbd=kentuckytest-a0a2n6-a
FAITH: That's amazing.
CUESTA: Now when you look at it closer, even in the picture, you can see that some of
the shoes are different. Some are bigger. Cut by eye.
FAITH: I notice when I was at the show, "Quilts for Change," with Carolyn, she looked
carefully to see things that you can miss if you're looking from a distance. You have to
go up and look at every aspect. And then it's just amazing. The amount of work that
goes into some of these.
CUESTA: This was a family of quilters. This is really nice. Because in African-American
families the quilts that are handed down usually from one generation to another usually
are used. And so it's very difficult to find an African-American family that had quilts
from different generations still in existent.
FAITH: Intact.
CUESTA: So this would be it. This was a buggy quilt. They used to ride and you can
still see oil stains where this buggy quilt touched the wheels and the dirt of the wheels
and oil... There we go. She didn't put... She just... That's a buggy quilt. That was just
going to be thrown over them as they rode around. You got the big pieces. Probably
large stitches...
BARBARA: Leftover scraps stuck in the middle...
FAITH: Is that a combination of piecing and appliqué?
CUESTA: I don't think so. I think it was all pieced. I believe it was. But it was a
wonderful quilt. It was done in California. This was an unusual... It was just the top but
in 1914 four churches there in Kansas had sort of a fundraiser and they used this quilt.
People would pay to have their signatures embroidered on it.
BARBARA: The quilter was copying the signature?
CUESTA: Well, she would trace over it. She would write on it, and then she would
embroider over the line. It was good because, I believe, when this exhibition was held in
this town two of those churches were still in existence. And so that kind of gave that
black population a history. And they looked for their relatives' names on here.
FAITH: And they looked for some of the work that they no longer had.
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CUESTA: What happened with this top... The local quilt guild realized it was an
historical artifact and so they raised money to purchase it. The person who had it was a
dealer. And then they gave it to the local historical society to preserve. Because all of
these were early citizens. And, you know what else is important about this quilt top?
Many of these people came in from Tulsa. You know when they had the big riot in
Tulsa? One part of the town, the black part of the town... It was just doing well. They
had hotels. They had stores. Nice homes, and everything. And then... We're talking
the early part of the 20th century, around 1914-1913... They had this terrible riot and
those people from... I don't know whether it was the Ku Klux Klan or just citizens in the
white area were upset. They went in and they burned the hotels and they burned the
businesses, and they burned homes and ran them out of town. And some of these
people on here, they went to Kansas, left Tulsa, and so it has a double history. This
quilt of Harriet Tubman and this one...
http://www.quiltindex.org/basicdisplay.php?pbd=kentuckytest-a0a2q2-a;
http://www.quiltindex.org/basicdisplay.php?pbd=kentuckytest-a0a3e5-a
They're in Atlanta, at the library there. A group in Marin County, out in California, made
these two quilts. This black philanthropist, Howard Thurman, (He's dead now)
commissioned these quilts to be made and then after he died, then his wife, because he
had close associations with Atlanta, it's Atlanta University, then it was Atlanta Baptist
Female Seminary.
FAITH: Is this one of Harriet Tubman, is that pieced?
CUESTA: It's appliquéd and pieced.
FAITH: Not painted?
CUESTA: No. Your painting is very unique.
Figure 15:
Faith Ringgold
Who's Afraid of Aunt Jemima? 1983
Acrylic on canvas, dyed, painted and pieced fabric
90 x 80 inches
Private Collection
http://www.faithringgold.com/ringgold/d34.htm
© Faith Ringgold
FAITH: Because that looks like a painting. But Carolyn showed me how it's done.
Because she has quilts that look like paintings. But they're not paintings. They are also
pieced, but she uses different fabrics that have a painterly quality for what she wants to
do. It's brilliant. I have to show you how to do it. It just blew me away. I couldn't
believe it. Fabulous. Grace I have to show you, too.
Figure 16:
Carolyn Mazloomi
All That Jazz, 2000
Cotton, silk, beads, buttons, machine appliqué, hand and machine quilted
78 x 70 inches
Private Collection
© Carolyn Mazloomi
CUESTA: Now this is a wonderful quilt.
BARBARA: Those are squares?
CUESTA: Yes. This has a special design. They're all so many different scraps you can
hardly tell it. But it was really a design quilt. I just love this quilt. I really wanted it.
FAITH: You wanted what?
CUESTA: I wanted this quilt...
FAITH: For yourself?
CUESTA: It's so stark. It just catches you.
FAITH: What year was that done?
CUESTA: Well now, she made three and this was the last one. I think it was around
1980. The first one was made about 1960.
BARBARA: Pieced and appliquéd?
CUESTA: She made three of these quilts. I think one is somewhere there in Georgia.
FAITH: It seems to me like I've seen that quilt.
CUESTA: One was in a private family.
GRACE: Did she make them all the same?
CUESTA: They're all the same. Now I've got this quilt. Now that's the freedom quilting
bee. The predecessor of the Gee's Bend. And they call that Joseph's coat of many
colors.
Figure 17:
Martin Luther King Jr., Quilting Bee
Joseph's Coat of Many Colors, 1980
55 x 38 inches
Cotton
Collection of Cuesta Benberry
http://www.quiltindex.org...
BARBARA: From the Bible.
CUESTA: This is Carolyn Harris of Detroit. She's an interior decorator by profession.
But she's also a quilt maker. And she made this one when Mandela was released.
BARBARA: Reparation.
CUESTA: This is another one that I just love. And she has influenced so many, Terry
Manget, and all these people. They were influenced by Mrs. Beatty. And I went to Mrs.
Beatty's house. I got pictures. She made these quilts and they're like movement.
Just moving all over the place.
FAITH: Rhythm!
CUESTA: Yes. Just moving all over the place. I think she went to the 1939 World's
Fair and looked at the quilts. So she started making her own. And she has influenced, I
don't how many people to make quilts that seem to be moving.
FAITH: Without the blocks.
CUESTA: Without the blocks. Yes. She's good. I felt so fortunate to be able to meet
her. To go to her house. This is Carolyn Mazloomi. That's hers.
FAITH: I have three from that series.
Figure 18:
Michael A. Cummings
African Jazz Series #10, 1990
Cotton, machine appliquéd
98 x 68 inches
Collection of the Artist
http://www.michaelcummings.com/africanjazz.html
© Michael A. Cummings
CUESTA: And this is Michael Cummings. The Jazz Series. That became very popular. I
think Hallmark, or was it Absolut Vodka? One of them carried it either in their
advertisement or made cards or something. This is Jim Smute(?). That's Josephine
Baker.
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FAITH: And who's that?
CUESTA: My one, my sole effort at making a quilt.
BARBARA: Let's give an applause. African-American Women and Quilts.
Figure 19:
Cuesta Benberry
Afro-American Women and Quilts, 1979
Cotton, pieced, appliquéd, embroidered, ink-inscribed, (twelve blocks)
78 x 53 inches
Collection of the Artist
http://www.centerforthequilt.org...
© Cuesta Benberry
CUESTA: I made that in 1979, more or less for lectures. See I put George's family in
there. Samples of quilts that had been made by blacks. Except this one was an antislavery
fair in Boston and the quilt was described in 1836 by Liberator Magazine. But it
just said crib quilt and then they wrote the verse out. The verse is very heart touching
about a slave woman and her child being sold away. So I went through a whole research
project to discover, they said a star quilt but in 1836, you know... hundreds of stars...
and so I tried to figure out which one and I ended up with this. And then I found that
quilt, in Boston, it was in the New England Society for the Preservation of Antiquities.
And they sent me a picture of the quilt. And that was the right block.
FAITH: So I think this has been a fantastic... This is our first, you know. And we're so
glad that you're the first. Because everyone else has to measure up, don't they?
CUESTA: I was so surprised. But it's wonderful and I really appreciate it.
FAITH: Thank-you for giving us a fantastic interview.
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Selected Bibliography in PDF format:
Transcript of the Interview with Selected Bibliography
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